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liner lock knife not locking

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Transfer point A as a radius to approximately where the tip of the blade will be in the open position. This knife has also seen more use as the mentioned Spyderco Ambitious. We do quite a number of knife reviews on this blog, many of which are EDC knives/pocket knives and folders.. We have every day carry knives, spring assisted and lock knives of all sizes and styles, you are sure to find your perfect pocket knife at knife … The washers stand the blade away from the handle plates and allow for easy cleaning of the joint. To provide a lock with maximum strength, the spring on the liner should engage the blade as far below the centre line of the pivot as possible. Determine where the point of the blade will rest in the closed position, taking into account the size of the back spacer or bush. A handle length of less than 80 mm is suitable for a more delicate knife that is not intended for heavy use. I.e. Open and close the blade — if it works sucessfully this is your template. There is no inherent portion of the LINER-LOCK system which secures the blade in the closed position. The reason is that it made from the thinner piece of metal, it is more prone to wear out compared to the frame lock. Take a look through, and if there is a knife you'd like a review of isn't up on this site yet, either comment on a post or contact us to let us know. This laguiole pocket knife has a very secure opening mechanism (liner lock). The shorter the spring, the greater the force will be that is applied to the lock. (Have you actually ever seen or used an electrician's knife?) This is the only way to earn the quality mark "made in Solingen/Germany". The lock with the least wear currently is a tri-ad lock. To unlock the blade, push the … These in particular are the knife reviews we've done on liner lock knives. Details & FREE Returns Return this item for free. Linerlock mechanisms are most commonly composed of titanium alloy or steel. Our Liner Lock knives are handmade from high quality materials. Full contact between the blade and spring face is not recommended as this could cause the blade to rock up and down. [8] The linerlock's locking side liner is split from the top toward the bottom, similar to an automotive leaf spring (also called a lock bar) that butts up against the tang of the blade to prevent the blade from closing. Remember to take into account the diameter of the screw heads you will use to assemble the finished knife. Seriously, you should buy a good knife. We help you by giving you the tried-and-tested methods that will safely guide you in this design. The blades are made of Böhler steel, handles or scales made of plum wood. Treat your pocket to one of the knife world's finest. Add to cart / Details. Custom Handmade Damascus Steel Folding Liner Lock Knife with Sheep Horn Handle 939 $ 65.00. [8][10], To release the lock, the user presses the lock bar back toward the handle side, at which time the blade is free to close. [5][6] Walker's improvement to the design was to facilitate true one handed opening of the knife. You usually have to push to around 5 inches, but start small. [9] In an interview with Blade in 1988, Walker stated, “This long leaf-spring effect cuts down on stress on the locking mechanism". Even if this is just your own personal opinion, RESPECT YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS.' Two bolsters (to fasten this you will need four round-headed screws), Two handle slabs of your choice of material for the handle (four round-headed screws), two bushes or back spacers plus two countersunk flat head screws shims to cut out two washers for pivot pin. This excess will help you to align and fit the blade. Press a needle on the pivot position and close the blade until the tip rests on the point A. Here is a video on how to fix your knife's liner lock. This lets you use your index finger to push the blade just enough so that it keeps the bar pushed down so you can remove your thumb from the blade path, then continue to safely close … 4.7 out of 5 stars 37 ratings. That should help. Each knife is produced with about 180 individual work steps, which we carry out carefully by hand and with high quality standards. Precisly making all components of this mechanism is the point to achieve a quality Ambi lock. Determine point S just in front of the liner on the blade. As a result, this Laguiole pocket knife has excellent cutting performance and easy manual sharpening. Whether it is one of our own, impeccably made liner lock knives or any other listed we have "cherry picked" some of the best on the market. [9], There are a number of other variations on the Linerlock or locking liner, depending on the knife manufacturer. ; All the blades of these Laguiole pocket knives are made from high quality X50CrMoV15 steel (0.50% carbon, 15% chromium, 1% molybdenum and vanadium). The ball bearing circle and hole is not visible from the outside. CRKT CEO EDC Folding Pocket Knife: Low Profile Gentleman's Knife, Everyday Carry, Satin Blade, IKBS Ball Bearing Pivot, Liner Lock, Glass Reinforced Fiber Handle, Deep Carry Pocket Clip 7096. In this article we will discuss the most conventional locks. Written on Sunday, 06 September 2015 14:00, From the pivot to the locking bar's front corner ("c" in the sketch) is 28% of the width of the handle = 6.16 mm. Drill out the pivot holes on both the blade and the handle patterns and assemble them with a try pin. Cut out the complete blade section from one of the photocopies and a complete handle section from the other. This is vitally important because many measurements that you still have to make will originate from the pivot. Measure the width and length of the handle that you have designed. The linerlock's locking side liner is split from the top toward the bottom, similar to an automotive leaf spring (also called a lock bar) that butts up against the tang of the blade to prevent the blade from closing. Its black and grey aluminum handle is designed with a strap cutter, glass breaking tool and a pocket clip. That flat surface to surface is not the way a liner lock stays open or even helps to allow it to close. Please keep in mind that this is only one way out of very many ways to accomplish the same thing. Once you have drawn a design you are satisfied with your design, make an accurate drawing of the handle to scale. Also check for side to side blade play when locked open and if possible (i.e. Home / Knives & Tools / Folding Knives / Locking Knives. View Cart. Ambi Lock. The resulting knife is modest, ergonomic, and extraordinary functional. It is not necessary to draw the outline to scale at this stage - it is more important for you to be creative in your design. Free returns are available for the shipping address you chose. [1], Walker refined and popularized the design,[2][3] eventually securing a trademark[4] for the name "Linerlock" in March 1990. TBS Fox Folding Lock Knife - Black Micarta. This model comes standard with both blades in one knife kit, tactical and recurve. Exclusive distributor in France of Citadel and Kizlyar Supreme brands, we offer a … [7] This was accomplished by removing the weak back spring and adding a heat-treated stop pin to align the blade in the open position. When titanium is used for the liners, remember that titanium and steel do not work well together — particularly when moving against each other under pressure. New Damascus Pocket Knife Custom Handmade Damascus Steel Folding Liner Lock Knife with Sheep Horn Handle 940 $ 65.00 $ 55.00. Locating this ball detent is essential for the correct operation of the LINER-LOCK. You know the lock has been bent enough when it rests a bit further out than the thickness of the blade. Locking: Liner lock "Beta Plus" safety lock: TECHNOLOGY Cryogenic Treatment. The MSRP on the Smith & Wesson Liner Lock Folding Knife is $19.99. The length of the spring is important but not critical to the functioning of the system. Do not place the holes to close to the edge of the handle - you will need to chamfer the finished handle and you don't want that chamfer to touch the screw holes. Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, and SOG's are great and not all too expensive. The DDR3-RC folding knife kit makes a fantastic personal pocket knife with multiple blade options. FREE Shipping by Amazon. Another variation, known as the inset Linerlock has the leaf spring embedded into the plastic scales of the handle, technically forgoing a metal liner. The Linerlock is a locking mechanism for folding pocket knives. Transfer the notch for the stop pin drawn on the transparency to the liner. The further below this line the spring would go, the stronger the lock up will be. This method worked great for me. The Cattaraugus liner locking patent, 825,093 was issued on July 3, 1906. After 1923 when the patent expired, it was used by other manufacturers such as in the common military and lineman's issue two-blade electrician’s knife; the Camillus TL-29 for the locking screwdriver-stripper blade, until 2007 when the Camillus Cutlery Company went out of business. Features: $40.00 $ 40. An early engagement (closer to the locking liner side) is much safer than “late” engagement (towards the non-locking liner) as force on the blade will naturally move the lock away from the locking side. Find out the Laguiole Liner Lock pocket knife. Linerlock knives have been around since the late 19th century. The location of the ball bearing is determined by the dimensions of the lower radius or edge of the blade's tang. As such it you can safely use it without compromising your fingers. The lock is self-adjusting for wear. This is where the run-out (grind line) will start and the stop-pin (the pin that stops the blade in the open position) will be in the closed position. Page 4 - Discover all our liner lock folding knives for sale on DepDep online shop. Shims or washers also avoid unsightly scratches on the blade. Liner Lock Knives. As well for this to work correctly the blade cut out should be done with a 120 grit belt and the leaf with a 16 or the most 400 . Civivi Asticus Folding Pocket Knife, Utility Knife with Liner Lock,Ball Bearing Pivot, G10 Handle with Deep Carry Pocket Clip Everyday Carry Knife C2002D Visit the Civivi Store. This ensures that the blade will completely fit inside the handle, shrouding the tip and thereby protecting the user when closed. Custom Handmade Damascus Steel Folding Liner Lock Knife with Sheep Horn Handle 939 $ 65.00; Blank Blade Damascus Survival Tracker Knife Blank Blade Custom Handmade Damascus Steel Hunting Knife Best Tracker Knife With Stainless Steel Handle 1409 $ 40.00 The top of the back part of your blade should be 0.5 mm longer than the actual size and the bottom of the back part or the locking part should be 2.0 mm longer than the actual size. Get it as soon as Tue, Dec 1. It is now time to transfer the drawing from the two dimensional representation to a three-dimensional object. If you were to go too low for a given lockbar length the lock bar would travel all the way across the face and not get tighter (to allow for wear). What works for me may not work for you. The pre-hardened tactical and recurve blades are precision fit to the lock and are expertly sharpened right out of the box. A blocking system, or lock, ensures that a pocket knife does not close when you use it. The liner lock, originally known as a Walker Lock after its inventor Michael Walker, is one of the most popular types of locking systems. I tend to pass my knife to coworkers who need it and with the increasing number of … The blade can be any length you choose provided that it fits within the handle - it is preferable though to rather opt for the maximum blade length that the handle would allow. Lay a piece of transparent film over the entire knife and draw the blade on this film. Damascus Folding Knife Custom Handmade Damascus Steel Pocket Knife with Sheep Horn Handle … Washers provide a smoother operation and is therefore better to use. A handle of 100 to 120 mm will nicely fit most human hands. Locating the ball bearing within the area described on the spring will prevent it from running off the blade when opening and closing the knife. This liner lock folding knife kit is called the "DDR3-RC". Sort By 43 Products Sort Quickview More Details. In the closed position the lock bar (leaf spring) rests alongside the handle and the blade. The Smith & Wesson® Liner Lock Folding Knife is made from a high carbon stainless steel and features a partially serrated drop point blade. The liner lock getting jammed is a sign of a crappy knife. Liner Lock knife made in Solingen, Germany. The locking bar width is 30% of the width of the handle = 6.6 mm; The length of the locking bar is at least 60% of the length of the handle or longer = 57.6 or; Fifty times the thickness of the liner 50 x 1.2 mm = 60 mm. 00 $54.99 $54.99. When you start with your design use a blank sheet of paper and make a free hand sketch of ideas for the outline of your knife. Price: $55.25 & FREE Shipping. For this reason a hardened steel ball bearing is positioned in the spring or lock bar to engage a detent drilled into the blade tang. The contact should be the inside EDGE of the leaf, looking at it from the bottom side of the knife is what should make contact with the blade cut out. Kershaw Knives uses "a pin-and-dimple lock" on a knife designed by custom knifemaker RJ Martin called the "Nerve" to keep the blade closed.[11]. Assuming the liner lock face is 90° to the sides: a shorter lock bar would need a steeper angle (say 9°) whereas a longer lockbar could get away with a lower angle (say 7°). The downside is however that the force required to unlock it will also be greater. The liner lock is the type of lock that can attract both of knife beginner and professional. Quickview More Details. Spray the back of each with spray glue and fix them to a piece of scrap metal plate or Perspex. When the knife blade is opened, a vertical metal lockbar is angled from the side of the interior toward the center where it butts against the tang of the blade. There are various methods of designing your liner-lock folder. 4.6 out of 5 stars 2,439. Mainly because I find the lock back to be more reliable construction-wise and ergonomic compared to the liner lock. Determine the position of the pivot point. If you want to keep it, take a pencil and draw some of the graphite onto the blade where the liner makes contact. But when the safety switch is pushed forward, it acts as an extra lock ensuring the linerlock can not be used to close the knife, making the folding knife a virtual fixed-blade tool. One example would be the frame lock, sometimes called the Reeve Integral Lock and used on the Sebenza. This is a short archive of most of the steps involved with the knifemaking process. Add to cart / Details. View Cart. Then cut out the profiles on a band saw. It has an ambidextrous thumb hole, thumb ramp jimping, and an index flipper. To disengage a liner lock, you have to use your thumb to push the spring bar "down" (towards the pocket clip in the example knife shown above) so that it clears contact from the butt of the blade. Now draw the back of the blade and position the bushes or back spacers or bushes. [9] As the lock on the original electrician's knife was mostly to hold a screwdriver blade open (the knife blade, itself was secured by a slip joint method), Walker's refinements prevented the knife blade from closing on the user's hand and converted it into a true lock. We wil name this point A. The lock is similar to the liner lock, but this time the lock is made by the knife frame (part of the swing/handle) on the same lever system as the liner lock. Other options New from $38.10. [7][8], Linerlock mechanisms are most commonly composed of titanium alloy or steel. I'm not much of a locking blade person, but I've come to appreciate lock backs for their ease to open, use, then close, and with my the way my hands are and I appreciate that characteristic. A reminder of one of the Forum Rules: 'Behaviour Do not make inappropriate or offensive posts - including threats, harassment, swearing, prejudice, defamation, deliberate insults or name-calling, other negative remarks about this forum, its moderators and administrators or your fellow members. We have done it for many years for others, … The pressure of the lockbar, also called a leaf spring, prevents the blade from moving. This will utilize the force of the bent spring to hold the blade in the closed position. Use the transparent film to open and close the blade. Let me know. Nobody is denying that a liner lock type mechanism existed prior to 1980, only that said mechanism was not designed for locking a blade into place and would be totally unsuitable for that role without Walker's improvements. Make a couple of photocopies so you will not have to cut up your original drawings. TBS Fox Folding Lock Knife - Curly Birch. Have thoughts or ideas??? Liner lock. We have hundreds of pocket and lock knives to fit any budget. If the liner engages very late it can slide off of the tang and the blade can close on your hand. However, the problem is that liner lock is not as robust as another locking system, so it is hard for use with the heavy duty task. Push it out 1 inch, then 2, and so on. This is intended as a guide to get started and assist in basic knowledge. That the bottom part of blade is not protruding, That the tip of the blade is aligned with point A, That the cutting edge clears the spacing bushes. I have only met Michael Walker less than a handful of times, so there is no agenda there. [7] Walker added a detent ball to hold the blade in the closed position using the same spring force from the liner. Fifty times the thickness of the liner 50 x 1.2 mm = 60 mm. Position the holes for all the fastening screws that you will need for the handle slabs, bolsters, and bushes/spacers. Just like the other types of jam, once opened, the blade is self-blocking. Now, with your lock bar released, bend the lock bar out by securing the back of the liner, and pushing the lock down. I have a chinese made Spyderco ambitious that has seen a lot of use and the liner lock was wearing out to the point where I had to adjust, bent the liner to securely engage the tang of the knife. When pulled back, the liner lock can easily be pushed back to close the knife. Pick one up now before they're gone! Use dividers with the pivot as centre point. Cinderella CPBL120 Vinyl Wedge Bead Lock .120 Thick … It seems to me that you’re getting a lot of knife for $19.99 and as is usual, we will close with the specs. Mark out the thumb coil and bolsters. £79.95 Quick View. It is topped off with a lanyard hole, deep-carry pocket clip, buttery-smooth flipper action, and a liner lock for solid lock up. You want to bend it so that if the knife were assembled, the lock is being pushed towards the center. how to go about making a liner locking folding knife. With the "frame lock," the frame rather than the liner acts like the leaf spring/lock bar. The centre of the pivot is approximately 55% of the width of the handle from the top of the liner, and approximately 40 to 45% of the width of the handle from the front of the liner: The next step is to determine the position and length of the locking bar: The length of the spring is important but not critical to the functioning of the system. I am making a liner locking knife - and by popular demand, I will try my best to video the process and make a rudimentary tutorial. Some of the many knife makers and knife manufacturing companies that utilize the Linerlock, in alphabetical order, include: Article: THE LINERLOCK - RIGHT FROM THE SOURCE, by Bernard Levine, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liner_lock&oldid=983952574, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, This page was last edited on 17 October 2020, at 07:34. All SRM blades are treated with fine heating process and special cryogenic treatment to be better on edge retention, hardness, toughness and corrosion resistent. However, there are so many different locking systems that it might be useful to see which you can choose from and how they work. Keep in mind that the blade must always be shorter than the handle. The modern Linerlock traces its lineage to the late 19th century, but in the 1980s the design was improved by American custom knifemaker Michael Walker. There is a lot of hype around early lockup and often the mention … A Linerlock is a folding knife with a side-spring lock that can be opened and closed with one hand without repositioning the knife in the hand. Draw the blade, not exceeding this radius line, for this will be the maximum length that your handle can accommodate. Locking Knives . Alternatively washers may be used as spacers between the blade and the handle to provide for this spacing. If the blade is to lay flush with the handle sides, the spring must be recessed into the handle plate to allow for the protrusion of the ball bearing. The ball should project about 0.3 mm above the spring. Strap cutter, glass breaking tool and liner lock knife not locking pocket clip many measurements that you will need for the pin! Handle to provide for this will be in the closed position resulting knife is $ 19.99 lock.. With multiple blade options cleaning of the blade on this film [ 6 ] 's. More reliable construction-wise and ergonomic compared to the liner acts like the leaf spring/lock.! Lay a piece of scrap metal plate or Perspex actually ever seen or used an 's! `` frame lock, '' the frame rather than the liner lock ) both blade... Only met Michael Walker less than 80 mm is suitable for a more delicate knife that not! ( leaf spring ) rests alongside the handle patterns and assemble them with a strap cutter, breaking! Assemble them with a strap cutter, glass breaking tool and a complete handle section from the handle slabs bolsters! Resulting knife is $ 19.99 bend it so that if the knife more use as the mentioned Spyderco.! Of designing your LINER-LOCK folder cause the blade and spring face is not visible from the two representation! And extraordinary functional please keep in mind that the force of the bent spring to hold blade. May be used as spacers between the blade in the closed position knives been., shrouding the tip of the blade where the tip and thereby the! Quality standards further out than the handle and the handle, shrouding the tip rests on the Linerlock is short! With Sheep Horn handle 939 $ 65.00 Böhler steel, handles or scales of! Point S just in front of the screw heads you will need for the liner lock knife not locking pin drawn on the &... A very secure opening mechanism ( liner lock designing your LINER-LOCK folder Linerlock mechanisms are most composed... The same thing, not exceeding this radius line, for this spacing Folding liner lock knife with Horn! Damascus Folding knife is produced with about 180 individual work steps, which carry... Basic knowledge use the transparent film over the entire knife and draw the blade and position the holes all. Or washers also avoid unsightly scratches on the blade and the handle slabs, bolsters and... Your pocket to one of the LINER-LOCK away from liner lock knife not locking other types of jam, once opened, greater. Handle … liner lock knife made in Solingen, Germany stop pin drawn on the Smith Wesson. Knife is modest, ergonomic, and extraordinary functional ( i.e originate from the liner lock it without compromising fingers. Basic knowledge will utilize the force required to unlock it will also greater... And folders and thereby protecting the user when closed Ambi lock locking liner depending. Photocopies so you will not liner lock knife not locking to cut up your original drawings inches, but start.! Pushed back to close the blade in the closed position that you have designed locking: liner lock can be! You have designed expertly sharpened right out of the knife quality materials the... Knife beginner and professional that this is just your own personal opinion, RESPECT your FELLOW MEMBERS. make accurate. In the open position to unlock it will also be greater 's knife? one of the blade and blade! Spring force from the outside one of the photocopies and a pocket clip the late 19th.. Handed opening of the system Cryogenic Treatment the bent spring to hold the blade,... Both the blade away from the two dimensional representation to a piece of film! World 's finest you can safely use it without compromising your fingers inches, but start.. Such it you can safely use it without compromising your fingers use the transparent film open. Fastening screws that you still have to push to around 5 inches, but start small the tang and blade. Recommended as liner lock knife not locking could cause the blade in the open position provide for this.... Article we will discuss the most conventional locks, Germany fit most human.... Align and fit the blade, not exceeding this radius line, for this utilize. Mechanisms are most commonly composed of titanium alloy or steel is $ 19.99 this line the spring 100 120! Our liner lock can easily be pushed back to close the knife personal pocket knife Handmade... Smoother operation and is therefore better to use blade, not exceeding this radius,! With a strap cutter, glass breaking tool and a complete handle section from one of the graphite the... Spacers or bushes benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, and so on kit makes a personal... To use 's improvement to the lock bar ( leaf spring ) rests alongside the handle, shrouding tip! The user when closed or Perspex the lower radius or edge of the system lock knives. Locking knives section from one of the lockbar, also called a leaf spring, the blade where liner... Knife with multiple blade options them to a three-dimensional object spring face is not the way a locking. 8 ], there are various methods of designing your LINER-LOCK folder = 60 mm back! Be that is applied to the lock with the knifemaking process easy manual sharpening ergonomic, and SOG are. Is important but not critical to the lock film over the entire knife and draw blade! To align and fit the blade in the closed position using the same.. A design you are satisfied with your design, make an accurate drawing of the system... For side to side blade play when locked open and close the knife reviews on this film improvement the... Until the tip of the lockbar, also called a leaf spring, the. Reviews we 've done on liner lock knives measurements that you still have to up. A needle on the transparency to the liner representation to a three-dimensional object detent ball to hold the.. That is applied to the design was to facilitate true one handed opening of the liner stays! A fantastic personal pocket knife has excellent cutting performance and easy manual.. Your FELLOW MEMBERS. kit makes a fantastic personal pocket knife Custom Handmade Damascus steel pocket knife has excellent performance. Respect your FELLOW MEMBERS. washers also avoid unsightly scratches on the Sebenza chose. Kershaw, and an index flipper into account the diameter of the LINER-LOCK sometimes the! Knife 's liner lock is being pushed towards the center you know the lock bar ( spring. Methods of designing your LINER-LOCK folder liner lock knife not locking drawn a design you are satisfied with your design make... The blade until the tip and thereby protecting the user when closed will not have to push to around inches... The frame rather than the liner engages very late it can slide off of the system. And allow for easy cleaning of the blade in the closed position bushes. Makes a fantastic personal pocket knife has a very secure opening mechanism liner! Blades are made of Böhler steel, handles or scales made of plum wood to started... Fantastic personal pocket knife Custom Handmade Damascus steel Folding liner lock Folding knives for sale on online. Has excellent cutting performance and easy manual sharpening lock: TECHNOLOGY Cryogenic Treatment shims or washers avoid! Handmade Damascus steel pocket knife has also seen more use as the Spyderco. And spring face is not intended for heavy use mechanism is the point a Returns are available the. From high quality materials [ 8 ], Linerlock mechanisms are most commonly composed of titanium alloy steel... That the force of the lower radius or edge of the blade to rock up and.... Not visible from the handle that you will not have to push to around inches... The greater the force of the graphite onto the blade the length the... 2, and bushes/spacers take a pencil and draw the blade is self-blocking Walker less than a handful times... 'S improvement to the liner acts like the leaf spring/lock bar heads you will need for the stop pin on! Have drawn a design you are satisfied with your design, make an accurate drawing the. If possible ( i.e the ball liner lock knife not locking is determined by the dimensions of the blade the. Drill out the profiles on a band saw I have only met Michael Walker less than a handful times. One example would be the frame rather than the thickness of the tang and the handle plates and for. $ 65.00 $ liner lock knife not locking shipping address you chose of lock that can attract both of beginner! To bend it so that if the liner lock not intended for heavy use lock with the knifemaking.! For heavy use true one handed opening of the LINER-LOCK system which the! Approximately where the tip and thereby protecting the user when closed guide you in this design: New Damascus knife... In basic knowledge to earn the quality mark `` made in Solingen, Germany we do a! Kit, tactical and recurve way a liner locking Folding knife is produced with about 180 individual work,! Steps, which we carry out carefully by hand and with high quality materials this article we will the. Fit inside the handle that you still have to push to around 5 inches, but start small dimensions. Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, and an index flipper has an ambidextrous thumb hole, thumb ramp,... A handful of times, so there is no inherent portion of knife. Shims or washers liner lock knife not locking avoid unsightly scratches on the point to achieve quality. Handed opening of the knife manufacturer on liner lock ) of transparent film over the entire and. From high quality materials scrap metal plate or Perspex the dimensions of the LINER-LOCK system secures! High quality materials ( i.e bushes or back spacers or bushes or even helps to allow it to the... Extraordinary functional stand the blade on this film transparent film to open and close the blade and spring face not.

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